“You can’t make peace with terrorists.” – Interview with Gary Dale Cearley

Gary Dale Cearley is a Bangkok-based American writer who was born in Arkansas in 1967. He is the author of two non-fiction books: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness – The Truth about the Vatican and the Birth of Islam (2006) and Gary Dale Gets Offensive: Lurid Scenes from Bawdville (2007). Both books were self-published through Lulu.com. In this interview, Gary Dale talks about his love for the truth, southern American humour, the “Muslim issue”, the writing process, and the expat literary scene in Thailand.

“You cannot do your research on the internet.”

Voicu Mihnea Simandan: You wrote Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness with the intention of deconstructing Jack T. Chick’s and Alberto Rivera’s claims that Islam is a fabrication of Vatican. For any educated person, this is quite obvious a blatant lie. Was there really a need for a book to prove so?

Gary Dale Cearley: Actually, yes! You see, what seems to be “obvious” to some is not so to others.  You would be really surprised how many people in how many places this bogus story has muddied the water for.  For instance, the first time I saw this story was from a devout fundamentalist.  No surprise there.  Many Christian evangelicals, perhaps the vast majority of them, deeply distrust the Roman Catholic church if for no other reason, for ideology alone.  When I saw this story my reaction was the same as you mentioned: This is incredulous and any bungling idiot could see its lack of veracity at face value.  A few years later I was presented the story again, but this time was from a fairly well educated businessman who is a self made millionaire.  My friend who gave me this was no dummy at all.  Again, he was smart and streetwise, but not any kind of expert on history.  When he read it there were many familiar sounding people and happenings, and like any good conspiracy theory, for those who don’t know exact dates and details, the story sounded like it could be plausible – like secret knowledge was being imparted that the powers that be tried to keep a lid on.

When I was passed this fraudulent tale the second time I searched for the Vatican Islam Conspiracy on the web and could see that this “story” had spread beyond the evangelicals into the non-religious, secular you might say, conspiracy theorist community.  David Icke was promoting it on his website.  It was also getting lots of time from political fringe groups.  Of course, I also thought that anyone who could look at the sources of the story and know that this was not to be taken seriously, but some people who I considered sane were.  What the Vatican Islam Conspiracy did was light a bit of doubt in people’s minds.  For people who aren’t so schooled in History lots of the story sounds at least plausible.  Alberto Rivera, like many fraudsters, mixed the familiar with fantasy.  For people who didn’t have time to actually research what Rivera was saying and what Jack Chick was promulgating some of this could actually sound true.

V.M.S.: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness must have required a lot of research. Tell us about the process of writing this book.

G.D.C.: I had to buy lots of books.  You cannot do your research on the internet.  Of course you can get some ideas and outlines on the internet but you do need to actually have to put in the hard yards and do the research.  I am going through the same process now with other projects.  When you finish it is a bittersweet feeling.  On the one hand you have a feeling of accomplishment.  The task was before me and I finished it.  On the other hand you never feel like it really is finished or that you got it quite right.  You have to eventually forget both of these feelings and move on otherwise other projects will falter.

“I received some attacks from some people, mainly fundamentalist Christians.”

V.M.S.: Were the book and your ‘attacks’ of Chick and Rivera well received?

G.D.C.: The book was well received by most of those who read it.  It was never meant to be a best seller but rather to set the record straight for those who were interested in knowing the truth.  I did receive some congratulatory mails from people I didn’t know but honestly I received some attacks from some people, mainly fundamentalist Christians.  See you have to remember two things: First, your average person out there, including some very intelligent people, do not really know much about history.  They might know bits and pieces here and there but there is a general lacking in broad picture understanding.  Secondly, there are loads of people around the world who do not trust the Roman Catholic Church.  The Roman Catholic Church, like the Central Intelligence Agency, becomes a boogeyman for people who are susceptible to mistrust of institutions and authority.  I for one am one of those mistrusters of institutions and authority but I try at least try to separate out what is reality from fantasy.

I find it strange that many people have tried to make the book controversial, when in fact it should be considered the antithesis of controversy.  Though the majority of readers have offered kudos, I have been attacked by many people for writing this book and even had people lie about having read it in order to refute it.  One that comes to mind is a bit of a running blog argument with a former Tony Alamo cult member, Thomas Richards.  He branded me on his website as a “Jesuit coadjutor” and called me a “Vatican shill”.  How do you answer fools?  I am not, have never been, nor never plan to be a Roman Catholic.  I personally don’t believe in their theology and they do have lots to answer for, not just throughout history, but even today as well.

Yet the truth of the matter is that people like Thomas Richards don’t really care what truth is if it doesn’t match their own version of their twisted, alternative truth.  I mean, come on, the guy followed Tony Alamo, didn’t he?  Cult followers need guidance, or they wouldn’t join cults.  The Vatican Islam Conspiracy issue was also taken up by Greg Szymanski on The Arctic Beacon, who incidentally was corrected in a forum by a woman who referenced my book.  If I remember correctly Szymanski said he’d look into it.  Eric Jon Phelps, and historical revisionist and author of Vatican Assassins,  is deep into spreading the Vatican Islam Conspiracy and he quotes Alberto Rivera directly and extensively.  Dr. Walter Veith, who with his “academic background” should be ashamed of himself for his utter lack of research on the subject, quotes Alberto Rivera extensively.  But again, not all of the promoters of this fake story are evangelical Christians who feel they have axes to grind with either the Vatican, Islam or both.   I mentioned before that David Icke had promoted this on his own website and to this date he still does.  But on the other hand, there are a few websites that took this fraudulent testimony off after the book’s publication.  And I say good on them!

V.M.S.: In Lurid Scenes from Bawdville you tackle humour in the American south. What are the main characteristics of southern humour?

G.D.C.: In traditional Southern story telling we have stories and not so much as jokes.  We Southerners don’t traditionally have the one liner rambling monologue that you see in comedians today.  If you want to know how it’s done I recommend looking up Jerry Clower.  He was probably the best know manure shoveler in the South!  But his stories aren’t racy like the ones I told.  Definitely not racy, but hilarious nonetheless.

V.M.S.: The cover of your Bawdville book shows two dogs copulating in the background. This might be considered quite ‘offensive’ and ‘lurid’ for many readers. Have you had any complaints?

G.D.C.: I think the complaints have been kept to themselves but I think that speaks for itself.  On the other hand, I have had people write in to me that they actually bought the book for the cover, and this includes people as far flung as Belgium, Australia, Finland…  One guy from Atlanta even told me he never opened the book.  He just laid it conspicuously in his apartment as a conversation starter!  Some places, bookstores, etc., won’t show it because of the cover, front or back.  But that is fine with me.  It is a non-fiction piece which, though it is quite fun to read, was actually produced to promote a style.

V.M.S.: Mark Twain had the Mississippi River. Has the Arkansas River had a similar influence on you?

G.D.C.: Good one! Actually, the Arkansas River is a very large river but it is about two hours away from where I grew up.  Nearer to my home were the Red River and much nearer was the Little Missouri River.  And I did use to swim quite often in that river.  I loved it.  I liked also the forested area that I grew up in.  You don’t have to go too far to get to it.  There was one particular bend in the Little Missouri River, known locally as the “Grayson Ford”, that used to have a used tire on a rope that we’d swing on.  One time I let go too late and instead of hitting the river I hit a very steep, hardened red clay, inclined bank.  I slid all the way down and took the hide off my backside.  I really suffered for that one!

“By self publishing I keep control of the content.”

V.M.S.: Probably due to the nature of your writings, you’ve chosen to self-publish. What are the advantages and the disadvantages of such an endeavor?

G.D.C.: Well, that could be a book in and of itself.  First off, by self publishing I keep control of the content.  Sure you will miss things no matter how long you comb over it, but at the end to the day the message is all yours and not watered down.  Also, for a book like my first book, Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness: The Truth about the Vatican and the Birth of Islam, there would probably never be a large market for this one.  Traditional publishers would pass on this because of the small potential and specialty publishers wouldn’t have the budgets to do much better than you could yourself.  And though my book will never sell anywhere near the amount of books that Jack Chick publishes, it is the beacon of light against the darkness that Chick’s publications spread.  It wouldn’t exist if I hadn’t self published.

“I have read some interesting writers who are Bangkok based but who are not necessarily good writers.”

V.M.S.: You’ve been involved in the administration of a writer’s meet-up in Bangkok. What’s your take on the farang writing scene in Thailand?

G.D.C.: Well, yes, I have been involved in running a group, the Bangkok Writers Guild.  It was started by the Indian author CY Gopinath who ran it for some time.  When he stepped down, or stepped back I should say, this group was taken over by Daniel Thompson.  He eventually moved back to the United States to go to divinity school.  I wanted to keep the group going so I then stepped in and took it over.  I did what I could with it but had to give it up the end of last year and Gopi took it back over.  There were two reasons for this.  First, I just travel too damned much.  Especially in the autumn, early winter and spring times.  I cannot commit to being at the monthly meeting due to my travel schedule.  Secondly, I am more into helping writers on a one-on-one basis.  My participation in such a group would be foremost for social reasons – to catch up with the other writers and see what we can do to help with their projects.

I could care less about having the readings of work and doing an open forum on what others think of another writer’s style.  This has nothing to do with whether I think I have to improve as a writer or not.  We all have to improve.  I have given my work to a few of the authors I know of.  But for me it is a bit of a waste of time, not making the contact with people on a personal basis.  You go to a meeting then a little business is discussed then critiques of somebody’s writing is done.  Nobody hangs around to get to know anyone else.  The help is a bit superficial.  If someone comes to me and wants help with a look over I can do that.  If someone wants to know what I know about getting the book out there, I am always willing to share.  But I don’t get much out of spending two hours discussing one-by-one a piece of what some guinea pig offers up in front of twelve people and not get to know the people there any better by their presence.  This is not a criticism of the group itself or how it is run.  It is just me saying why I personally don’t participate much anymore.

Now after that rambling, I am not sure that I have really answered your question about the foreign “writing scene” here in Thailand…  Well, there are more writers here in Thailand than there were in Saigon when I published my books.  And I would say that there aren’t just more, but there are a higher percentage of published writers.  Some of them are interesting but to be quite frank only a few are impressive to me as writers.  CY Gopinath and Maclean J Storer come to mind.  I have read some interesting writers who are Bangkok based but who are not necessarily good writers.  I have also seen some who have good style but not much substance.  I tend to stay away from the fiction that is produced here that is about the local expatriate community, especially the ones that are detective stories or revolve around the bar scenes.  Honestly, so much of that is just cookie cutter bung and many of them are using broken molds.  I guess I am being quite hard in my assessment because I have not read each and every one of them.  And let’s face it, there are very few professionals on the market.  Most writers here, including myself, are strictly amateurs.  There is no shame in that.  Amateur writers throughout the world and throughout time have produced solid bodies of work and have contributed to culture and scholarship.  I like reading autobiographies written by amateur writers but I am not a nut for detective stories involving expats with bar girl love affairs.  We could damned sure use less of that.

“You can’t make peace with terrorists.”

V.M.S.: As a researcher of Islam, what is your opinion of the Muslim insurgency in the south of Thailand and the Thai government’s actions in dealing with it?

G.D.C.: First of all, I am always careful about discussing government policy openly in any country that I am a guest in.  Secondly, I do think that this will be a problem simmering as long as Islamic extremism isn’t dealt with.  This is a problem that the Thais share with the Filipinos in Mindanao, with Russians in Chechnya and Dagestan, with Nigerians in the northern part of their country, the Georgians with their Abkhazians, with China and their Uighurs and even in secular Muslim countries.  The problem lies in the religion itself.  There can’t be a political solution without wiping out the notion of Islamic theocracy.  And that will be damned hard to do.  I think that this will be a never ending story.

You can’t make peace with terrorists.  There is no one representative who is in charge of them.  If there were the solution would be simple.  Remove that guy and his replacements.  You don’t have this in Islamic insurgencies.  In almost every one of these cases there would be peace tomorrow if the Muslims themselves wanted peace.  But they simply don’t give a damn about peace at the end of the day.  It is a terribly flawed thinking these insurgents have and it is inhumane to the rest of the planet we live on.  It is one huge disservice that people like Barack Obama does to the world is to ignore this fact and still try to make strategic decisions.  I just hope Thailand does not follow in this shallow example.

“I have a top secret project.”

V.M.S.: What manuscripts do you have on your ‘writing desk’? It’s been three years since your last book! When will you publish next?

G.D.C.: I have been working on a few projects but it takes me quite some time.  These require lots of research.  One that I am working on, quite proudly I might add, is a biography of Lysander Spooner, who is one of my heroes.  Personally, this should have been finished long ago but I had a terrible misfortune.  My better half left my computer in a taxi and all of the work that had been done on an almost complete biography was lost – poof!  Just like that.  I was foolish and didn’t have any back up.  I only had my own notes.  But I am at work on this again but it has been slow going.  I only do this on the weekends and when I am not traveling so it is like pulling teeth to get it done.  I have also been making collections for a follow up to “Gary Dale Gets Offensive” but I am in no hurry to get that one out.  And I have a top secret project that I am not so keen to talk about now.  Because of all the projects being juggled I am currently focusing on the Spooner bio.  It is one of the most satisfying projects I have ever done as well.

“For a writer, reading is almost all there is.”

V.M.S.: As an avid reader yourself and a prolific writer in charge of several blogs and corporate newsletters, how important is it for aspiring authors to read as much as possible?

G.D.C.: For a writer, reading is almost all there is.  I read on airplanes and before going to sleep.  I used to read a lot at lunch time but that has kind of gone out the window now.  The only better ways of learning about the world are traveling and doing.

One thing I like less more and more is that more and more of my reading, especially news, is done online.  What I have noticed is that this is decreasing both my attention span and my retention.  At the same time there is such a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips it becomes such a temptation to surf constantly – especially with the direction that social media is going.  But I am resolving to cut lots of that out.  Plus I think my eyesight goes faster online than it does on the printed page.  Or am I just being a traditionalist?

Besides reading I think an important thing is to keep a blog.  I have several and find myself working on them on my spare hours.  But just like a daily journal you need to make time for this.  There are many benefits to this, which I am sure you know as well.  You reach out to all kinds of worlds when you blog openly.  I even started a blog in Esperanto recently.

“By self publishing I keep control of the content.”

V.M.S.: Probably due to the nature of your writings, you’ve chosen to self-publish. What are the advantages and the disadvantages of such an endeavor?

G.D.C.: Well, that could be a book in and of itself.  First off, by self publishing I keep control of the content.  Sure you will miss things no matter how long you comb over it, but at the end to the day the message is all yours and not watered down.  Also, for a book like my first book, Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness: The Truth about the Vatican and the Birth of Islam, there would probably never be a large market for this one.  Traditional publishers would pass on this because of the small potential and specialty publishers wouldn’t have the budgets to do much better than you could yourself.  And though my book will never sell anywhere near the amount of books that Jack Chick publishes, it is the beacon of light against the darkness that Chick’s publications spread.  It wouldn’t exist if I hadn’t self published.

“I have read some interesting writers who are Bangkok based but who are not necessarily good writers.”

V.M.S.: You’ve been involved in the administration of a writer’s meet-up in Bangkok. What’s your take on the farang writing scene in Thailand?

G.D.C.: Well, yes, I have been involved in running a group, the Bangkok Writers Guild.  It was started by the Indian author CY Gopinath who ran it for some time.  When he stepped down, or stepped back I should say, this group was taken over by Daniel Thompson.  He eventually moved back to the United States to go to divinity school.  I wanted to keep the group going so I then stepped in and took it over.  I did what I could with it but had to give it up the end of last year and Gopi took it back over.  There were two reasons for this.  First, I just travel too damned much.  Especially in the autumn, early winter and spring times.  I cannot commit to being at the monthly meeting due to my travel schedule.  Secondly, I am more into helping writers on a one-on-one basis.  My participation in such a group would be foremost for social reasons – to catch up with the other writers and see what we can do to help with their projects.

I could care less about having the readings of work and doing an open forum on what others think of another writer’s style.  This has nothing to do with whether I think I have to improve as a writer or not.  We all have to improve.  I have given my work to a few of the authors I know of.  But for me it is a bit of a waste of time, not making the contact with people on a personal basis.  You go to a meeting then a little business is discussed then critiques of somebody’s writing is done.  Nobody hangs around to get to know anyone else.  The help is a bit superficial.  If someone comes to me and wants help with a look over I can do that.  If someone wants to know what I know about getting the book out there, I am always willing to share.  But I don’t get much out of spending two hours discussing one-by-one a piece of what some guinea pig offers up in front of twelve people and not get to know the people there any better by their presence.  This is not a criticism of the group itself or how it is run.  It is just me saying why I personally don’t participate much anymore.

Now after that rambling, I am not sure that I have really answered your question about the foreign “writing scene” here in Thailand…  Well, there are more writers here in Thailand than there were in Saigon when I published my books.  And I would say that there aren’t just more, but there are a higher percentage of published writers.  Some of them are interesting but to be quite frank only a few are impressive to me as writers.  CY Gopinath and Maclean J Storer come to mind.  I have read some interesting writers who are Bangkok based but who are not necessarily good writers.  I have also seen some who have good style but not much substance.  I tend to stay away from the fiction that is produced here that is about the local expatriate community, especially the ones that are detective stories or revolve around the bar scenes.  Honestly, so much of that is just cookie cutter bung and many of them are using broken molds.  I guess I am being quite hard in my assessment because I have not read each and every one of them.  And let’s face it, there are very few professionals on the market.  Most writers here, including myself, are strictly amateurs.  There is no shame in that.  Amateur writers throughout the world and throughout time have produced solid bodies of work and have contributed to culture and scholarship.  I like reading autobiographies written by amateur writers but I am not a nut for detective stories involving expats with bar girl love affairs.  We could damned sure use less of that.

“You can’t make peace with terrorists.”

V.M.S.: As a researcher of Islam, what is your opinion of the Muslim insurgency in the south of Thailand and the Thai government’s actions in dealing with it?

G.D.C.: First of all, I am always careful about discussing government policy openly in any country that I am a guest in.  Secondly, I do think that this will be a problem simmering as long as Islamic extremism isn’t dealt with.  This is a problem that the Thais share with the Filipinos in Mindanao, with Russians in Chechnya and Dagestan, with Nigerians in the northern part of their country, the Georgians with their Abkhazians, with China and their Uighurs and even in secular Muslim countries.  The problem lies in the religion itself.  There can’t be a political solution without wiping out the notion of Islamic theocracy.  And that will be damned hard to do.  I think that this will be a never ending story.

You can’t make peace with terrorists.  There is no one representative who is in charge of them.  If there were the solution would be simple.  Remove that guy and his replacements.  You don’t have this in Islamic insurgencies.  In almost every one of these cases there would be peace tomorrow if the Muslims themselves wanted peace.  But they simply don’t give a damn about peace at the end of the day.  It is a terribly flawed thinking these insurgents have and it is inhumane to the rest of the planet we live on.  It is one huge disservice that people like Barack Obama does to the world is to ignore this fact and still try to make strategic decisions.  I just hope Thailand does not follow in this shallow example.

“I have a top secret project.”

V.M.S.: What manuscripts do you have on your ‘writing desk’? It’s been three years since your last book! When will you publish next?

G.D.C.: I have been working on a few projects but it takes me quite some time.  These require lots of research.  One that I am working on, quite proudly I might add, is a biography of Lysander Spooner, who is one of my heroes.  Personally, this should have been finished long ago but I had a terrible misfortune.  My better half left my computer in a taxi and all of the work that had been done on an almost complete biography was lost – poof!  Just like that.  I was foolish and didn’t have any back up.  I only had my own notes.  But I am at work on this again but it has been slow going.  I only do this on the weekends and when I am not traveling so it is like pulling teeth to get it done.  I have also been making collections for a follow up to “Gary Dale Gets Offensive” but I am in no hurry to get that one out.  And I have a top secret project that I am not so keen to talk about now.  Because of all the projects being juggled I am currently focusing on the Spooner bio.  It is one of the most satisfying projects I have ever done as well.

“For a writer, reading is almost all there is.”

V.M.S.: As an avid reader yourself and a prolific writer in charge of several blogs and corporate newsletters, how important is it for aspiring authors to read as much as possible?

G.D.C.: For a writer, reading is almost all there is.  I read on airplanes and before going to sleep.  I used to read a lot at lunch time but that has kind of gone out the window now.  The only better ways of learning about the world are traveling and doing.

One thing I like less more and more is that more and more of my reading, especially news, is done online.  What I have noticed is that this is decreasing both my attention span and my retention.  At the same time there is such a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips it becomes such a temptation to surf constantly – especially with the direction that social media is going.  But I am resolving to cut lots of that out.  Plus I think my eyesight goes faster online than it does on the printed page.  Or am I just being a traditionalist?

Besides reading I think an important thing is to keep a blog.  I have several and find myself working on them on my spare hours.  But just like a daily journal you need to make time for this.  There are many benefits to this, which I am sure you know as well.  You reach out to all kinds of worlds when you blog openly.  I even started a blog in Esperanto recently.

V.M.S. Thank you for your time.

G.D.C.: No worries! I am happy answer your questions!

Voicu Mihnea Simandan
Bangkok, Thailand
April 25, 2010